Some thoughts about Touga in the series vs. the movie have been sitting in the back of
my mind for a while. He’s not a character I see discussed a lot, so I don’t
know if other people have wrote about this before or not.

I’ve seen a lot of people make a distinction about series!Touga
and movie!Touga, and while everyone’s show and movie characters have obvious
differences, I think at the core they are all the same people with the same
basic issues. Touga, at first glance, seems to be the most different out of all
of them. I think we’d all consider movie!Touga a better guy than series!Touga.
He’s certainly more sympathetic, being dead and all. Movie!Touga doesn’t manipulate
Utena or abuse Nanami, and he seems to be an all-around decent guy.

However, I think his story is the same in both continuities.
In the series, he realizes he loves Utena, but his attempts to save her fail because
the only thing he knows how to do is replicate the same patriarchal behaviors that
he wants to save her from (ie, dominating her and making her his girlfriend).
In the movie, he dies trying to rescue a girl from drowning. In both cases, it’s
the expectations of masculinity, of “princely-ness,” that cause his downfall. Movie!Touga
has to try and save the drowning damsel in distress, because that’s what
princes do. Series!Touga replicates the abuse performed by his role model,
because that’s presented to him as the way to manliness and power.

This isn’t to say we should sympathize with
series!Touga the way we might with movie!Touga, but I think the similarities are
important. They’re two sides of the same coin, and together are a strong
argument for the ways in which masculinity and sexism hurt men.

ladyloveandjustice:

rosepetalrevolution:

big-bro-raditz:

A lot of people in the Utena fandom seem to get angry at the idea of “demonizing” Shiori.

If Shiori displayed any positive qualities to her character whatsoever through the entire series, maybe I wouldn’t demonize her?

Even if I didn’t like Juri????  How much clearer could it be???

I mean literally I might argue that Shiori had even less good qualities than Akio. At least Akio was debatedly “forced” into the role of a bad guy.

Shiori was just a raging bitch.

I guess it’s implied she improved at the end of the series? But? During the whole thing, her motivation for everything was literally “I hate Juri and I want to hurt her” after Juri did literally nothing but treat her as a friend.

So excuse me if I “demonize her.”

Perhaps it would be helpful to explain why many of us in the Utena fandom get angry about those who demonize Shiori.

  1. She is 14 years old, at least according to the Utena Wiki. Certainly, I am not suggesting that 14-year-olds are not capable of reaching extreme depths of cruelty, because we all know that’s actually very much the case so often. But I do think it’s worth pointing out that she is young, as what follows is, in my eyes, made even worse in that these things are experienced by a child.
  2. Most fans who come to Shiori’s defense are in agreement that she is mentally ill. It’s pretty clear in the series, in my opinion, given her absolute breakdowns in Mikage’s elevator and the dueling arena, and her extreme inconsistency in her behavior regarding Juri. It’s widely agreed – and even confirmed by the creator of Utena in his director’s notes on the subject – that Shiori is not actually acting from a “I hate Juri and I want to hurt her” place or motivation, but in fact can’t handle her confusion over her own romantic or sexual feelings for Juri (which are suggested throughout her arc and in the final episode), her jealousy over her friend’s beauty and success, and likely an illness that exacerbates the hardships of being a teenager, let alone one who gets wrapped up in the twisted shit that goes on at Ohtori.
  3. Shiori is consistently manipulated by those who are older than her and/or are in positions of power. It’s suggested that Mikage and/or Akio are responsible for most of the Black Rose Duelists seeking out the seminar, and I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to imagine that one of them had a hand in Shiori’s return to Ohtori. Mikage and Anthy (as Mamiya) take advantage of her instability by making her a black rose duelist – the aquarium rose scene at the beginning of Shiori’s episode is the one that most clearly reveals the intentional manipulation of Shiori with the goal of manipulating Juri. She’s used as a tool in order to turn someone else into a tool, and thrown away when she’s ultimately ineffective. And then there’s Ruka, of course, who never has any feelings for Shiori but takes advantage of her emotionally and sexually, sleeping with her with the singular purpose of breaking up with her, upsetting her, and motivating Juri. This is to say nothing of his corrective sexual assault on Juri, and yet Ruka often gets valorized as ‘giving Shiori what she deserves.’ No person deserves what happens to Shiori.
  4. Shiori also does, at times, display positive qualities. She expresses a sincere desire to mend her relationship with Juri early on, before any of the manipulation that begins with Juri’s necklace being found in her room (not a coincidence in the slightest, as nothing is in this show). This also happens in a scene on a balcony, I’m at a loss for where in her first episode it takes place, but Juri is the one who shuts Shiori out. In the end, after Utena’s revolution, it looks as though she’s trying to find a way to interact with Juri that is healthier (although what happens post-series is extremely vague, and I do not mean to suggest that she is magically not sick anymore, or that she and Juri can or should have a healthy relationship).
  5. And finally, I think that it’s very risky to compare any character in the series to Akio as far as being a ‘villain’ (with the potential exceptions of Ruka and Saionji, but I recognize and will concede that this may be my personal bias against them rather than a more objective reading). If Akio is ‘forced’ into the role of bad guy – which is up for debate and would be rejected by a number of fans – then we need to recognize the ways that other characters are as well. And Akio recognizes this and is ultimately the one perpetuating such abuses against the children and young adults that he lures or forces into the dueling game. Akio is a rapist, a physical abuser, a liar, an emotional manipulator, and responsible for the deaths of at least 100 people. Shiori is a mentally ill, confused teenager who’s been manipulated and abused and struggles with internalized homophobia.

Shiori does some deeply cruel things, and they should not be excused. I’m also a firm believer that Shiori x Juri is a ship that’s headed for disaster. But these are the reasons that many of us in the fandom are very protective of Shiori. She’s a complex character – as they all are – and is frequently upsetting, but she is not all bad, she is mentally ill, she is an abuse victim, and she is a child. To demonize her for such things is diametrically opposed to one of the key themes of Utena – that healing and freedom and health are possible when cycles of abuse are broken and the violences of patriarchy are rejected.

“I think this teenage girl who was very cruel to Juri and was being manipulated and was very sexually confused has less good qualities than an adult who repeatedly rapes children, purposefully manipulates and preys on them (including said girl), is implied to murder someone and abuses his sister, forcing her into a role that causes her endless pain”.

Wow. Woooooooooooooooooooooooooow.

Utena!

Thank you I was really hoping to get Utena!

THE OTP: Utena/Anthy, of course

M/F OTP: Miki/Some nice girl who doesn’t resemble his sister (Now that I’m doing this I’m realizing I don’t ship any of the dudes with like anyone, whoops)

M/M OTP: Hm… I like reading romantic feelings into Touga/Saionji, but I don’t ship it per say… so let’s go with Chu Chu/the Frog he said goodbye to in the ending. I hope the frog one day breaks free of Ohtori and reunites with Chu Chu and they live happily with Utena and Anthy.

F/F OTP: Either Juri/Shiori once they get in better places with
themselves, or Juri/Wakaba or Juri/Nanami, once they’re older 

Fav Female: Tie between Juri and Utena. 
Fav Male: Chu Chu  I’m going to admit that I found Touga really interesting in my rewatch. I don’t like him as a person, but there’s something really sad (not quite sympathetic, but sad) at the end when he realizes Akio is bad and wants to save Utena, but the only way he knows how to try doing it is by replicating Akio’s behavior and trying to force Utena to be his girlfriend.

Least Fav Female: Kanae’s mom or the one lady teacher (I love all the girls a ridiculous amount)
Least Fav Male: Akio

Why I joined the fandom: I’d seen a lot of people recommend the show, so I decided to try watching it. And it of course turned out to be a hugely important story and everyone’s takes on different things are always so interesting to read.